The Three-Step Framework for Building Partnerships That Deliver Real Results

Csaba Csordas (00:00):

Contracting is not easy, never easy, especially with the GSI, but we managed to get through that. And after then, the hard part started because everybody was happy, but the people on ground could not see how they would use our service to meet their own KPIs, the ones that actually they got measured on, paid on.

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Tyler Calder  (00:22):

In today's episode of Get It, Together, I sat down and spoke with Csaba Csordas, and his background is quite interesting. He spanned software engineering, into consulting, moved into partnerships. We get into all things, of course, partnerships, but what I really love is the perspective of an engineer and how he came in and started to diagnose what was happening in his existing program, and then start to rebuild from the ground up. And some of his advice, such as you should really think about asking for your partner sales dep before showing yours, I think is a unique perspective and grounded in some really interesting thoughts on the why behind these tips. So sit back, enjoy, learn from one of those individuals doing things a little bit differently in a really meaningful way. So I hope you enjoy. All right, well, welcome to the show. Super excited for the conversation.

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(01:28):

One of the things I've heard you suggest as a piece of advice we talked about a little bit before we jump on the podcast was you should ask for a partner sales deck before showing yours. Where does that come from?

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Csaba Csordas (01:41):

Again, I entered into this industry without too much bias, without too much understanding of how it's been done before. And I started to watch people, and this happened with many organizations that I worked and when I talked to other peers as well, I started to recognize that almost each and every partner conversation, it doesn't really matter, it's a early conversation enablement, partnership team do a broadcast. So often you get into this call and you will see probably three things nowadays. 95% of the time you probably see extremely outdated sales deck with a few add-on slides that has the definition of those outdated models and probably a really light slide about what the synergist could look like. So that's 95% of the time what I saw people doing even today. The second that is more advanced is using technology to create some better looking decks. So you probably update your sales deck, it will be branded and potentially you will use your partner branding as well.

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(03:05):

So it creates that perception that there is already some harmony, but at the end of the day you have exactly the same content. And the third thing is when the partner manager does its own due diligence, does all the research, you do the sales 101, know your customer, know who you are talking to, and creates a deck that already is based on the research, all of a sudden you go into that conversation with a lot of assumption. And many people, because it creates that confirmation bias that you already know that partner, you start telling them how this partnership could look like without understanding how they operate and without even listening what they tell to you. That confirmation bias can be so strong that even if they are telling you that this is not how we operate, you will be in that wrong position. So I started to ask them, okay, but does this, what I found from you, it reflects reality because we all know that sometimes if you publish something online that not necessarily have all the details in it, just because you are offering certain services because your competitors also do, that doesn't mean that that's where you make money.

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(04:34):

If you are, for example, I'm working in cybersecurity, if you start to slice down that word and if you don't understand that under their cybersecurity line of business, how that differentiate between active protection monitoring and compliance, you don't have a good reflection on how the partner make money. So instead of going with a lot of assumptions, going with a lot of bias into the conversation, you should ask them what do they do? You analyze how they position themself and that will give you a way much better way to think about how to drive that conversation. It will drive more curiosity towards that partner because you understand that, okay, if I want to talk their language, then I want to borrow the language that they use with their own customer. That's kind of the initial idea behind it.

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Tyler Calder  (05:41):

I was picturing a standoff between you and a partner. I was like, well, I'll show you mine, but I want to see yours first. But I like the logic. One of the stories that you shared was a big partner of yours. They had great reach, they had executive support of the team, but the business still wasn't moving. I'd love to hear a little bit about that story, how some of what we've already talked about, because I think you've alluded to some of it already, had influenced your approach to all of that. But let's start there and then like I said earlier, we're going to keep peeling the onion back and get tactical here.

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Csaba Csordas (06:17):

The story that I shared, it's one of my favorite story and one of my biggest success that I built with Global GSI. The idea behind that partnership was relatively straightforward. We convinced the partner that there is a good opportunity to work together and to build a new business line that everybody can benefit for. But if you work with a big GSI before, you quickly understand that the level of complexity that they are operating in, potentially it goes beyond your relationship that you have. And this is not just with a GSI, but also with a potential big four company. So unless you are one of those top 30 vendors with serious local presence, you are not reaching the executives with global remit and we can easily get lost in that internal matrix. So we tried to embed our solution into their service offering. As I mentioned, we found a few use cases that were quite obvious and the people that we had access to and we talked to, they were really supportive.

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(07:43):

They understand what we are trying to achieve. They were on board. They told us that it was a good idea and it was enough for me. So we took it. They telling you it's a good idea, we took it. We signed a contract, contracting is not easy, never easy, especially with the GSI, but we managed to get through that. And after then, the hard part started because everybody was happy, but the people on ground could not see how they would use our service to meet their own KPIs, the ones that actually did get measured on, paid on. So we struggled to make progress with the entire program because they saw another vendor, they saw another solution and they saw their targets. And that's the last thing that, can't remember their name. Anyway, so the GSI account manager, they cannot see beyond those targets and what they are measured on.

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(08:52):

So you can imagine that we had a great idea, management being on board, we signed the contract, we went through all the hard bits, and after then nobody really cared about the solution that we are offering for them, so nothing happened.

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Tyler Calder  (09:07):

So you have that experience, and I think that shapes your future approach to a certain degree. One of the things we talked about is today, your first step with a partner is score before you sign. And I'm making a presumption that part of that comes from this experience of sounded great, did it, didn't pay off. You know what? Now, regardless of what I'm hearing from other folks and how great this thing might be, because most people are optimists, why wouldn't we be? I think that's a great characteristic, but not everything is going to work out the way maybe we think it will. So your first step is score before you sign. I would love to talk about what that looks like. So how do you assess before deciding a partner deserves your time, your investment? How do you do that as an engineer, a very objective data-backed, scientific way?

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Csaba Csordas (10:08):

I never thought about that, but probably my brain is wired in such way. So yeah, certainly that's where you start with the data. So when I joined this organization, obviously being the first boot on ground and building a go-to-market strategy in Europe, which is quite broad territory, you have a lot of options to choose from. And that's what you do. You start using various tools and start checking the partners, what they do, you measure them against certain metrics that you define. The scoring that I use, there is no rocket science behind it. So there are core elements that I think everybody does, like customer overlap, the industries that they operate, the service line components that fits within your tooling, the regions that they cover, the size of their customers. I think that's the baseline. But my biggest problem with that is if you do that, then what you will get back is not going to be different than what your competitors will see.

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(11:29):

So potentially you can find exactly the same partners as your competitors. When you are reaching out to those firms, then they either have already your competitors in their roaster or you will compete with them just to make sure that to sell a dream to them because at that point in time, usually when you're trying to find new partners, you don't necessarily have a confirmed revenue stream behind it. So unless, and I never worked in the company that existed before, but unless you have a impossible to match value proposition that your competitors cannot replicate, it's just extremely difficult to get attraction with them. So I run the scorecard, I look at the data, that's my engineering mindset on all those typical dimensions, but I also look at their accessibility, how far I can go to reach to those individuals, what's their maturity, how we can create potentially new ways of engaging with them.

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(12:44):

There is a brilliant book that I read is Thinking in New Boxes. So rather than think outside the box, think in new boxes, and I always try to challenge that, okay, I have this data, I can put this partner in this box, let's challenge that and create some new categories. And if I move away from a system integrator into a customer enabler category, it's just a different conversation altogether and you can challenge all of those categories left, right and center, and that will hopefully give you a different view than what your competitors will see from the partners. So it's not something that will change the world, but I think if you go beyond the data, you apply again some creativity that can lead to new thinking and that will allow you to find better partners, or at least in my experience.

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Tyler Calder  (13:44):

I mean, I'm curious about all of this conversation, which means I'm also very curious about this, but the context I'll give around my curiosity, at PartnerStack on the marketing side, we have scored about 60,000 target accounts using about 58 different signals, and we've gotten to the point where it's relatively automated. So we're going out, we're identifying those signals, we're scoring these accounts even before we've ever even tried to market to them, engage with them. On the partnership side, I haven't talked to many people, quite literally maybe a handful of folks that have this similar sense of score before you sign, which I love. Are you automating this in any way, like what I just suggested we're doing on the marketing side and not necessarily to the scale of 60,000 potential partners, but is there some system you've built to help support this?

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Csaba Csordas (14:42):

It's more ad hoc rather than continuously running repeatable outcome. But what I do is I have a couple of skills, and if I'm not mistaken properly, my baseline was borrowed from your skill repository. I have a couple of skills that I built and tailored to my specific need, and I often use them when I go to events. So not as a broad scale to scout for partners for a specific country, that's still quite manual for me. I'm using the same skills, but more on an ad hoc basis. But when I go to events, I love to check those organizations, run against those scoring and come up with a priority list that checks some of those important elements and gives me that outcome that I can apply that human elements to build those potential differentiating factor to it. So the data is automated, I have a few skills, run it when I go into events, but for me, the most important element is the output that allows me to apply that level of differentiation so I will not sound the same as all the other partners would do.

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Tyler Calder  (16:15):

Yeah, cool to hear to hear you tried out the skills marketplace. We got the score before you sign. The next thing that I know you think about and you've kind of structured in your process is watch before you engage. Let's talk about that. What do you need to observe about how a partner is selling, how they're delivering to help justify further investment, further engagement, the signs that they're going to be a good long-term partner? What does that look like, watch before you engage?

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Csaba Csordas (16:47):

It's a bit more than stalking on people. That's kind of the baseline, but when it comes to reaching out to partners and you have discourse, you have an idea of what you can do with this partner, for me, the next stage is you build up that though where you can differentiate yourself. And after that, you try to go into how that partner communicates to their customers. You go through their socials, you go through their announcements, what events they go to. You try to validate of what they publish on their website in comparison to what you found out from them. And you look at these individuals that actually can be your champion in that organization. Again, quite often I see partnership managers are going after, and I don't know what's the reason behind it to be honest, they're going after executive sponsors, the directors of the organization, et cetera, et cetera.

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(17:53):

I like to focus on those kind of in the early stages on those champions who can actually help you to build a practice, who can actually understand what your value proposition is. They can understand how to ask those questions from you, how to challenge you in those early conversation, which for me is really important to understand how active that partner could be, what we can do with them, are they going to end up in a long tail or we should invest more time in it? So for me, that watch before you engage is all about understanding, again, going back to that curiosity, understanding how they operate, not what they tell to the word, but what real people tell to their customers, to their network, what their achievements are, who could be your champion who can actually help you to build that center of excellence when you are not there.

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Tyler Calder  (18:54):

One of the, again, just some of what we talked about before the podcast, you had what you described as a breakthrough. That breakthrough was embedding your tech inside of the Partners Managed Service. Number one, why was that a breakthrough and didn't necessarily happen sooner or maybe feel obvious? And I don't mean that to throw shade, genuinely curious, what was the moment where that felt like a breakthrough? What would it have taken to gotten there faster? And then once you realize it, what changed?

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Csaba Csordas (19:30):

So I need to go back to that previous story when I said that we got the executive engagement, we got the agreement with the GSI that this brilliant solution, go to market with this and nobody was selling to us. The breakthrough for me was to find through our champion where are those business lines where we can truly embed our solution in a completely invisible way. So we put our solution into some of those large infrastructure, big dollar engagements as an invisible line that the salespeople did not even know about that there is a technology element behind it. So as soon as we started doing that, all of a sudden from skeptical salesperson who did not saw the benefit of bringing our solution as another vendor in front of their customer, all of a sudden they started to see the differentiation factor around their own offering, the one that they sell all the time, and they saw only the differentiation factor.

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(20:53):

And all of a sudden we started to get hundreds of salespeople reaching out to markets that we did not even targeted before. Their business model was completely different. And it might be our luck because we've been doing compliance that time, so everybody needs compliance. But as soon as it's packaged on an overall program that become a differentiator for them, it's no longer Excel spreadsheet. We use technology for that, but that's all what they know. And we managed to reach to customers and into verticals that we never targeted before. So that was a huge step for us. So from salespeople who didn't care too much about another vendor, they started to look at the differentiation factor of their own offering that they own and know, and all of a sudden they started generating business for us. And the other element that it was a significant change when, if you think about it before you try to convince the GSI to enable, train 10, 20 consultants to build a center of excellence around a promise that nobody validated, and you went into a model where you sold already a solution and you have to train those people.

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(22:30):

It started to be like a P&L conversation from that point onwards. So you're no longer selling a promise. What you are selling is customer commitment that you have to deliver and that will have impact on your P&L. So you need to optimize that and you need to deliver that across the entire organization.

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Tyler Calder  (22:51):

And if it's not clear to the listener, we're walking through a pretty structured process here, which I enjoy. This idea of going from score before you sign to watch before you engage to what I'm going to ask you next, which is about measure what's real. I think having a deliberate repeatable process like this must lead to predictability and consistency and results. Is that a fair assumption of what you've observed by following this flow and structure?

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Csaba Csordas (23:25):

As soon as you get there, it does. I always say to everyone who was asking me about this scenario that it is always easier to visualize this, put this in a PowerPoint than actually to deliberate. Because as you can imagine, I just mentioned a few items like the legal, harder, the finding right people, the complexity of the matrix of a larger organization. There's always challenges behind it, but as soon as you get there, that repeatable outcome is always something that you can benefit as a business. And now thinking about the software engineering mindset, we always wanted to build reusable components, so that's probably where it's coming from.

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Tyler Calder  (24:16):

This is Get It, Together, the podcast where partnership and go-to-market leaders share the real stories behind programs they've built and scaled. Let's talk a little bit about what are you doing today, the role, the company, and then I'd love to talk about what was that transition from software engineer and architect into partnerships? And then we'll keep peeling that back and go deeper, deeper.

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Csaba Csordas (24:43):

My name is Csaba Csordas, as you guessed it right. It's a typical Hungarian name, so it's not many people are guessing the pronunciation right at the first time. So I'm looking after our partnership and alliances for Hyperproof. We are a cyber compliance solution, and my remit was over a year ago to help building the European go-to-market strategy. Our choosing path was to go down, engage with partners, consultants, GSIs, et cetera, et cetera, to expand in this market. So that's kind of a really short version of what I do today. I was the first boot on ground in Europe, which obviously it comes with its own challenges, and now we are growing the team and we are expanding in the region.

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Tyler Calder  (25:30):

Let's get into this interesting background, and I find it interesting. I'll tell you why I find it interesting because some of the best marketers I've ever worked with come from an engineering background. One of the highest performing marketing teams I've ever worked with, outside of my current marketing team, obviously, was a team that was largely engineers in data science. I have to imagine there's something similar to what I saw there with what you've seen moving into partnerships. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'd love to hear about that transition from engineer to partnerships and what it is that you've brought with you that you think has impacted your view or influenced your view of how to work within a partner org.

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Csaba Csordas (26:18):

Like I mentioned, I started my career as a software engineer. And if you think about what a software engineer does, it designs something, then builds it, and you start watching where it breaks and you rebuild it. And this is the way how I approach partnerships today. So in 2009 when I moved to the UK, and that was the time when Apple came out and just released a new first developer tools for iOS, I was in those early days of building mobile application. And at that time we didn't have playbooks. We did have a few guidance and Apple was really pushing just to follow those guidelines. They reviewed everything, but it wasn't limited knowledge out there. So you get the basics right because they gave you something, but what you did is really you shipped your application, you watch what people are doing with it, capture the feedback, and you went back and you do it again.

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(27:30):

So if I look at what I do 17 years later, it's not too different. I no longer build software and I'm building partnership, but there is the same loop that is part of my job. Build a program or review one, optimize one instead of application, then I measured them and I keep changing them to meet those market is asking for it right now. I worked together with a lot of partner managers in the past who came from that traditional either marketing or software sales background. And I realized that me having that building mindset, and since through my career, I was working also as a consultant and in services, I felt that I'm sitting in that really interesting intersection where great things happen. So it's not about the vendor, it's not about the customer, it's not about the delivery teams. Sitting in that intersection and understanding all of these bits and pieces probably allows me to do some really good work with partners.

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(28:43):

And people recognized that I wasn't the one who recognized it, and I started to go down that path.

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Tyler Calder  (28:50):

Well, now I'm curious, who recognized it and pushed you in that direction?

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Csaba Csordas (28:55):

So it was one of our European sales leader, and he invited me, as he called it, "To the dark side." So I was in the technology space and he said, "Look, you do really well understanding the business. You understand technology. You are really good translating between these two teams, so would you consider a commercial role?" And that's how I started to venture down that

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Tyler Calder  (29:26):

Path.

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Csaba Csordas (29:27):

It was an interesting challenge in the beginning, but it worked out well for me.

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Tyler Calder  (29:32):

What translated and what didn't translate in that move? So you mentioned it was challenging at the start. What were those challenges? Because I imagine some of the challenges came from things that perhaps you thought would translate over, but maybe didn't. I'd be curious what that might've looked like.

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Csaba Csordas (29:49):

So obviously sitting on the other side of the fence, it gives you a lot of ideas and perceptions. Of how a partnership could look like. And when I was in consulting, I learned how partners make money, like selling services hours. So that was how they make money. When I entered into partnership world, everybody was telling me that you should position all of those referral fees to your partners. And that was what I got from the business. Okay, this is how we position ourself. Go to the partner and give them 20% margin. They're really generous. And you have to work with something that I know that that's not what they get interested in, but that's what I have to work with. So it was an interesting transition. I'm not saying that it was challenge on its own to know that there is a difference, but when I started in that position, I didn't know what good looks like.

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(30:59):

So I was following other people's path. The other interesting element, which I found extremely challenging, nobody really understand when we talk to a delivery partner, a typical GSI conversation. And my management was telling me that, "Oh, that's brilliant. We are offering free enablement for this GSI." And I found it extremely difficult to explain to people that if you are offering free enablement for that GSI, that doesn't mean that there is no cost for them. You have to understand that if you take a few consultants out from delivery, that means that you are losing revenue of billable hours that they potentially can not recover because if things are not going in the right way, then obviously it will not create that revenue stream that you are selling to them as a dream. So for me, I understood what's happening on consulting side. I understood what's happening on service delivery side.

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(32:02):

And I was facing in an environment with people who've been doing this for a really long time and I was the new person trying to venture into this space. And I felt intimidated in the beginning that yeah, you are trying to push things that in my view doesn't make any sense. But because I did not have the experience to challenge that, I found it really difficult in the beginning.

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Tyler Calder  (32:27):

I'm going to ask one more follow-up question and maybe you have an answer to this or not, but it comes from a place of curiosity. And here's the context around the language I'm going to use. I saw Stephen Bartlett speak, who's the host of the Diary of a CEO podcast. And one of the things that he talked about on stage was this idea of paper walls, which is to say a lot of decisions are made because you think you're up against a brick wall. You can't break through it. When in fact, the vast majority of walls are paper walls. You can just poke it, walk through it and drive the change that you think seems obvious. Did you come across anything? Because what I just heard you say makes sense, but part of what I also heard you say was, "I saw things because I didn't have maybe the type of experience that suggested it's done that way." Did you come across anything within partnerships where you actually did push and realize, "Oh, we've just been doing it this way because we've always done it this way and we can change it and we did change it?"

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Csaba Csordas (33:31):

Absolutely. And I believe that this is when it comes with experience. So if you are new in that environment, obviously you're trying to figure it out what you are doing, but it didn't take me too long to understand that those brick walls, those parameters that the team was operating within, it wasn't set for the environments that we brought to our customers. So we've been selling a SaaS solution, a subscription model that it does not go well with those really old distribution models and partnership models that was created in an era where software vendors been still selling their solutions and deliver through a floppy disc or CD. So I quickly realized that the environment has changed, the model did not change. And as soon as you started to go down those individual challenges and you explain what that means for your customer, what that means for your partner, it started to shift towards a new thinking.

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(34:50):

But when I started, obviously I felt that, yeah, I'm just hitting all of those brick walls. And because I did not have the experience to challenge people in that environment, it took some time to make those calls that led to better conversations, that led to better service offering, that led to better engagement with partners and ultimately with your customers.

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Tyler Calder  (35:16):

What were a couple of those calls that you made once you gained a little bit of experience, felt a little bit more comfortable? What were some of those calls that you made that drove change that led to those outcomes, those better conversations, better commercial outcomes for both parties?

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Csaba Csordas (35:31):

There are small things that I started to push from the get-go. One of them was to stop boxing our partners in those typical models that everybody does. We have the system integrators, we have the advisory firms, we have the boutique companies, we have the resellers, value add resource. So that was the first thing that I said that's great. And they might create a perception of bringing revenue to us because their logo, it looks fantastic on a board, et cetera, et cetera. But I started to show that I can do way much more business with a small boutique firm than a big four in a certain environment because they understood better of what we are offering to them. They aligned with our capabilities. The language was more harmonized. And when we went in front of a client, they managed to win over the big four nine out of 10 times because they managed to communicate our value proposition in a more aligned way with what they do rather than just being, okay, so the software vendor does the demo and after then the delivery team will do, this is how we do implementation.

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(36:56):

So it was kind of like a full disconnect. Creating those synergies, showcasing to the business that we can win more with a partner type that it was not even a category before. It allowed me to explore more and more changes on the way how we operate. And there's multiple layers to that. You can think about the sales element, you can think about the delivery element. And one of my favorite thing that I think the industry is still lacking, that enabling your partners to manage your customers after they decided that they enter into that partnership relationship between a vendor, a partner and the customer.

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Tyler Calder  (37:39):

I want to hit on that final step that I mentioned, the measure what's real. That suggests that people are measuring things that aren't real. It suggests that you had discovered that. Where did that come from? What were the things that you see partner leaders measuring that don't necessarily feel real? And then how did you identify and establish what is real and how do you go about measuring it?

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Csaba Csordas (38:02):

So I experienced this first when I went into partnership because many of the KPIs and metrics that I received, it didn't add it up for me. Why does that matter? I was happily paid for, but I quickly realized that just because you have meetings, you onboard new partners, you train partners, and all of those typical metrics that I saw in the word of partnership does not necessarily lead to revenue. And when it comes to the end of the year, end of the quarter, there is always the important element that all the business owners will look at how much revenue you generated from that program. So I think it's a human nature that we like to show progress through activities that is easy to measure. When you have a number against the number of partners you signed up, onboarded, et cetera, et cetera, that's easy to measure.

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(39:07):

When you start thinking about how does the partner influence a certain deal, there's always a tricky conversation that's happening behind the scenes on how to justify that partner attribution. And equally, when it comes to partner source deals, which I think are probably the most important item on the list of what the partnership leader should focus on, it's not always obvious when that deal was sourced by the partner. Because I've worked with some of these big four consultant firms, GSIs. Sometimes before a customer reaching that conclusion that they need the technologies to solve a business problem, there is a year or even more before that time, there is a work with the partner that actually can generate that opportunity for you. So the customer go through, I've been doing most of my career in B2B large enterprise. So by the time a consultant identified the business problem, recommends a technology solution, the customer go through the typical buying cycle, budget approval, et cetera, et cetera.

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(40:27):

Potentially can be like two years before you get into a lead that you can capture in your sales force and you can report against. So it's easy to measure those activities, easy to report on. And I was pushing back quite a lot in my current business and previously as well to instead of focusing on how many qualified but not 100% sure leads can be converted into the next stage of the sales funnel to focus on things that actually is being generated by the partner. It might not manifest for the next two years, but let's focus on those elements that can have a realistic outcome further down the line where the partner, it brings that true value to that organization. It does not manifest in the quarter, that's a challenge behind it, but that's where I see the partner would bring the true value for any software vendor or SaaS vendor nowadays.

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Tyler Calder  (41:30):

I'm going to ask one closing question. The time snuck up on us. I love the process a lot. I think I'm probably going to implement chunks of this at PartnerStack. So the score before you sign, the watch before you engage, measure what's real. If somebody is listening right now and they're reviewing their partner program, is it as simple as starting to look at those steps and looking through those lenses and starting to evaluate from there? Is it kind of to your point and something you mentioned earlier, once you're there, this becomes scalable and predictable. Presumably a lot of people listening aren't there. So where should they start? Where are the questions that they should look at immediately or ask themselves as they review their partner program or maybe a handful of partners? What are the things that they should really hone in on to quickly start to make some decisions as they concurrently build this refined, robust sort of system that you have?

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Csaba Csordas (42:41):

The most important element, it goes back to my previous point is stop measuring activities. I think if you measure only activities and not outcomes, then it's going to be extremely difficult to see where your partner program sits. That's kind of the first and most important thing that I would highlight. When it comes to other elements, I think the way how I review partners when I joined this organization, for example, I'm trying to figure it out how their customers operate. So start with the end customer rather than focusing your relationship with the partner because I think that a lot of people are missing and there is a lot of thought goes into the partner program and people just lose focus on the end goal, like how they can make the customers successful. So if you can stop measuring activities, especially the activities that makes your customers more successful, then you will start building some of those values with your partner that can lead to a much stronger relationship, not just with your partners, but also with your customers as well.

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Tyler Calder  (44:18):

I think that's super fair. I really appreciate that insight and I'm sure the listeners do as well. If folks want to follow up, ask any questions, maybe pick a brain, what's the best way to get in touch with you?

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Csaba Csordas (44:31):

So the easiest and best way is just to connect with me in LinkedIn and you can reach out to me anytime. I try to share my thoughts and experience on a weekly basis to help to those young pud events, venturing into the partnership words, not to face the same challenges that I faced. If you have any questions, just feel free to reach out and I'm happy to get connected and try to help wherever I can.

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Tyler Calder  (45:00):

Perfect. Well, thank you so much for the time, the advice, the structure. Really appreciate it. And I'm sure you're going to end up hearing from some folks. So thanks so much.

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Csaba Csordas (45:12):

Thank you so much, Tyler. Thanks for having me.

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Tyler Calder  (45:14):

Thanks for listening to Get It, Together. If you want more resources to help you build and scale your partnership program, be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app and get more proven tips and tools at partnerstack.com/getittogether.

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